Public Health Explained - Common Concerns about Unionizing, Answered

Unions fights fascism. Form a union today. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome back to Public Health is for everyone, the Public Health Explain series. I'm MJ and I'm here with Emily. Hi Emily.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hey MJ.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We're both currently research staff at a large academic research university, and times are tough right now. Things aren't pleasant due to the current landscape. So my job is currently very stressful. I'm sure your job right now is also quite stressful.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

And on top of all of this, we're also trying to do something that's really cool, which is we're trying to unionize the research staff. The effort is called Rally. First of all, whoever came up with this, great acronym.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Fabulous acronym.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Yeah. Stands for Research and Lab Labor Empowered. Where's the A? Oh, AND, I see. Research and Lab Labor Empowered.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

It's just lowercase.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

It's just lowercase. You know, that's one of my pet peeves, is sometimes acronyms will skip the in-between words like AND and OV. And I'm like, that's not a true acronym. Like you cheated your way into a nicer sounding acronym, but this is a true acronym. Yeah. We're including the AND. Whoever came up with it, props to you. Fantastic acronym and thing that we're trying to do, which is to unionize the staff. The link to Rally's website and more details will be in the episode description. When did it start? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Um, I want to say it started back in 2023 or 2024. Maybe 2024 was a bit more accurate.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Were you one of the first wave OGs, or did you hear about it afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I think I was one of the first waves, and then I was kind of like off doing my own thing for a while. I was really busy with work, and then I sort of re-entered the rally space and started organizing more actively. So it actually was the summer of 2024 that I first heard about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

For me, it was last year. I was not one of the first wave OGs, but as soon as Katie, who was at that point the union organizer for us, as soon as she reached out, I'm like, I'm in. You don't have to say anything else. Like, I'm fully on board. No need to convince me. And then I became involved. But yeah, it's been a while since we first started trying to unionize, and it's been a very long process, mainly because of size. There's a lot of research staff at this large academic research university that we won't name, but you can probably figure out very easily by just going to the website.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

We have encountered many people with reservations or questions or concerns, which inspired this episode. We're going to answer some of the common questions that people have asked us when we are spreading the news about rally and unionizing in general. Hopefully, this episode can serve both as answers for people who are still unsure about the unionization process and as a resource for people trying to unionize their workspace. As with all unionization processes, the first step is spreading the news, which means making a lot of connections with your fellow staff and talking with a lot of people, which is kind of the space that we're in right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yeah. And I mean, like you said, there are a lot of people and we're all very spread out.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

So spread out.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah. And I would say unionizing in a workplace of research staff specifically is just really interesting overall. And like you said, we're spread out. We have a range of jobs, different job titles, and we typically have to reach out to folks either via email or by doing physical walkthroughs in our university buildings. And there are a lot of different buildings. You don't have access to all of them. You got to find someone who has access, get them on board with the union. So there's just a lot of steps you have to take. It takes time and it takes a lot of perseverance, but it is really rewarding. And if we're emailing people, we'll ask folks to meet on Zoom or grab a coffee. And if we meet someone on a walkthrough and they have a few minutes to chat, we typically take that opportunity to get a conversation started. And in these conversations, we ask about each person's individual experience at our workplace and then follow that up with how having a union would specifically benefit that person or address some of their grievances. We also take that opportunity to introduce the unionizing process and answer any questions the person might have. We've definitely run into quite a few people who have never been involved in a union or didn't know much about the unionizing process. So I'd say it's pretty natural that people would have questions or concerns. And we also encounter misinformation sometimes, and it's sometimes it's generous. Yeah. I'd say more often than not these days. But yeah, we definitely encounter misinformation. And it's important that we talk through the facts and what unionizing looks like in practice. And that's a big reason why we're doing this episode.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

A core part which I love about unionization is the reaching out to people. This is not one of those things where it's like top-down. This is very much like a grassroot movement. And we don't just want people to sign something. We actually want to get to know them and talk to them and have that grassroot momentum because this is how you build connections. This is how you build community, and this is how you build a union.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

You mentioned at the beginning that you know times are tough right now. And I think a lot of times people say that is a barrier to creating a union right now. And it's actually the best time to do it because it means we need to have this collective power now more than ever.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Now more than I want to say the last 20 years for research staff.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah, yeah, I would say is bleak.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Let's jump right into it. Here are some common misconceptions and questions about the unionization process that we and other staff organizing have encountered. They're not in any particular order, but we'll start with like the more common ones first, because we get the top three, I think, all of the time. So, first concern or question is I'm worried that I'll lose my job, or I'm worried about my upcoming promotion, or any sort of that type of questions.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yeah, this is a really common one. People often fear retaliation, especially if they've never joined a union. And we commonly need to remind people of these facts. I'd say, number one, retaliation for unionizing is illegal. Like bottom line, it's illegal, and you're fully within your rights to join and support and organize a union in your workplace. Second thing is as the current promotional process currently stands, it's ultimately up to your manager and HR to promote you, which we've seen has been incredibly unreliable across research staff. And three, we ask people, do you feel that you have that job security now or the ability to get that promotion now? I would say securely. And given the current political climate and the lack of funding coming into public health and just the issues with that promotional process, we almost always get the answer no.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Something to note is that point two and three, I think can be generalized to other academic centers, but we were referring specifically to our current employers right now. But for a lot of research staff, you may be in similar boats. But to point number one, it is illegal to retaliate. And to the point where I think most lawyers would jump on that case because of how easy it is to win. Yeah. Because it's a very clear black and white thing. You know, it reminds me of when I went to undergrad, some girl got hit by a bus by the school shuttle.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

That also happened at my undergrad. It's actually surprisingly common.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

She's fine, but she got a huge payout from the university. And, you know, if your employer does retaliate against you, silver lining, you're probably gonna get a huge payout because of how black and white this thing is. Like they cannot retaliate against you for unionizing or supporting a union. Yeah, I think this is a very common response. Like, what if I lose my job or what if they retaliate against me? To be fair, I want to validate that that is a very reasonable concern to have. We've all heard stories about toxic workplaces and terrible managers. My take on this has always been if a workplace is willing to retaliate against you for trying to protect against your rights, to me, that's even more a reason to unionize.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

You need that protection now. Like if you have a toxic workplace, you want it more or you should want it more. Like, wouldn't you want to work in a place where they can't treat you poorly, where you have that layer of protection? Don't you want to be protected by strength and numbers, right? That's also another core function of unions. And the way that we can achieve that is by unionizing with our fellow workers, or in this case, for us, our fellow research staff.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

I will say too, I understand that people might have concerns. Well, if I lose my job, I'm not gonna have the money to find a lawyer, have the time to deal with this, I'm gonna be looking for other work. I think it's also important to know while we're not fully unionized yet, the unionizing efforts within our university are really strong. We have one fully formed union for the PhD students, the postdocs are negotiating their contract now, the non-tenure track faculty are also on their way. So yeah, I totally understand that concern. But at the same time, I think having this union support within our university means we will be able to support you as a whole. It's strengthened numbers across the board, not just research staff, but unions across the university too.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah, it's one of those things that's like a snowball. If one group has a union, another group has a union, like the more unions you have in a particular organization, the effects are compounding.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Definitely. It gets easier with more and more people getting on board for sure. And to echo your last point, which is do you feel you have job security now? I would also say, what makes you think your employer cares about you right now? They cannot care about you beyond the ability of an engine caring about its screws. I've heard stories from families and some friends of how they worked super hard, stayed at the same company for years, and then suddenly one day they were let go. And it's not because of something they did, it's because, well, you know, shareholders wanted to move in a different direction. These stories are endless. You can find stories like this on Reddit or whatever on the internet. So I just want to remind people that under the current system of capitalism that we have, your employer is almost incentivized not to care about you. Because the more they do care about you, the less efficient they are, quote unquote efficient in big capitalist brackets. I think it's possible for your coworkers to care about you. I think it's possible, even in our case, for our PIs or managers to care about you, but that's not the same as the organization or the administration. The company or the organization ultimately sees you as a number. Keep that in mind. This idea that, oh, people care about me. Like people care about you. The organization does not.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah, and I think it's important to point out too, they'll send out emails saying that they don't want to let people go. They're going to do everything they can to support their staff. And at the same time, we see people getting laid off all the time in really unfortunate situations. And there's no protection for them afterwards when they're laid off, and there's no effort to find them a new placement if their funding is ending.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

This reminds me, I have a friend who shall remain unnamed who works at a big tech company that will also remain unnamed. They sent out an email saying that, oh, we made record profits, so we're only cutting 3,000 people.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

My God.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Like the mental gymnastic that they had to do to send out that email and be like, oh yeah, this is a fine email. This is a good news. We're only cutting 3,000 people. And I'm like, you have record pro like those two shouldn't be in the same email, but it's one email that they sent out.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Oh, yikes. My God. Read the room.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Read the room, which I don't think they could, even if they see the room, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

But yeah, and I mean if you're making millions of dollars, like I mean, our university president is, then it's gonna be hard for you to relate. So someone's gotta hold you accountable.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah, remember, people care about you. Your coworkers, your managers, or even your PI, the people care about you. Administration does not. Okay, next common thing that we get, kind of related to the first one. I don't want to antagonize my manager or I don't want to cause like workplace friction.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah, my response to this is often to remind people that we aren't trying to pressure managerial staff or PIs to make the changes. Like you were just saying, these people typically care about their staff. It's not across the board. We've definitely heard stories where that's not true. But at the same time, we want to pressure the administration, like you were saying, to make these changes to support the research staff and provide the resources for your managers and PIs to carry out the new implemented changes. So we're not trying to pin staff against their management. We realize that, you know, the managerial staff have also struggled with how the university currently functions. We've had really open conversations about that. This includes the level of work needed to promote their staff, the paperwork they fill out on a daily basis, and the lack of support for their needs as well. And we, on the other side of it, also realize that the PIs are really struggling to get and keep their funding these days, especially all the federal funding that typically comes into our university. So we want the university to be the one to step in and alleviate this financial stress with paying people a fair salary because we know they have the money to do it. The research is there. We can add some links in the podcast description, and also offering financial assistance and a transition period if someone's grant is terminated early, like we were mentioning before. This is actually something the PhD student union was able to negotiate that if their funding ends, they have a three-month period where the university is required to help them find a new placement. So it does give a buffer and some hope for people to stay within the university. If it doesn't work out, we understand things don't always work out. But I mean, having that buffer period is so, so important. And one union organizer used the phrase quote unquote, a rising tide lifts all boats. And I think about this all the time. I think that's really the best way to view this unionizing process. If we pressure the administration, we lift things for staff, our managerial staff, our administrative staff, our PIs. It just goes up the ladder, and that's how it should be when times are like this.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Given how much of this organization is composed of staff, if staff is good, that means your foundation is good because we are the foundation of research activities.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Just want to say, if we go on strike, it's gonna be bad.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, same thing with like nurses, and we are the core, we're the foundation labor in this freaking uh organization. And if we're good, then everyone's good because we sit at the bottom of that pyramid, I guess. It's not my favorite shape, but whatever. Also, like you mentioned the transition period. It reminds me of when ACA was it ACA? It was one of the big reforms they passed, like Cobra, where if you get terminated from one job, your health insurance doesn't immediately end. Like there was a grace period, Cobra. When that came out, a lot of people were like, sorry, we didn't have this already. Yeah, it's the same thing here. Like, what do you mean? So if your grants cut, are you just screwed immediately?

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

It's surprising what we don't have.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

And you spend millions of dollars on real estate elsewhere. It's like, oh, I guess you're not gonna help me.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

So it is uh the contrast is stark about what the organization is spending and what we are not getting. Another version of this response is like, I like my manager or I like my PI. And I just want to remind everyone like this is not about them. This is about the organization, this is about the administration. And like I mentioned previously, your PI may be a nice person who cares about you. That's totally possible, but they are not a representation of the organization. They are definitely not HR. And I don't know if this is true for every place, but this is true for the place that we are currently working at. PIs and managers cannot make decisions about your pay. They cannot make decisions about your benefits. That is locked away behind what the organization is doing. There are times, like I've witnessed this with some of my coworkers, where the manager or the PI is advocating for them and they're hitting a brick wall with HR. This is not about them. This is about something that's much bigger than them. And also the workplace friction thing, my personal experience is I haven't come across that much. Like, I don't think your coworkers care. When I talk to, for example, Ammin staff are a separate entity. When I share this effort with Admin staff, they're generally pretty supportive. Like, I don't know if you've heard stories of like actual workplace friction, but I think most people are cool with this.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah, I mean, I've heard disagreements. I think that just comes from some weariness. You occasionally run into someone who's like, I'm not interested, but but that's not the same as like workplace friction. Yeah, no, everyone has pretty much been open to having a conversation, and even if it ends with a disagreement, everyone's been, you know, pretty happy to chat at least, and we can go our own ways. But yeah, I haven't had a lot of stories about like true, true friction.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

I think that anxiety is perhaps a little bit overblown. The most friction that I've came across is just people telling me they're busy. I get it, I'm busy too, and you probably don't want to spend more bandwidth thinking about something else you don't have to. But uh but yeah, I don't I haven't come across any like true workplace friction, like drama regarding this.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, and that's not to say, I mean, it's possible it's happened.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

I'm sure it's out there. Yeah, like somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

I mean, the only drama I've heard is people being like escorted out of buildings for talking about the union. That's actually not staff on staff friction, though.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah, that's organization on staff.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah, and I will say that actually got other staff fired up when they were actually on the fence.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Yeah, can go either way. But yeah, I mean that to say, if anyone's listening and you have experienced true friction, please hit us up.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah, let us know. Please email the show.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

That's important to talk about. So definitely.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

But yeah, most of the friction is coming from the organization, if anything. Yeah. All right. Another common response. We are in the process of, we can say this right. Yeah, we are in the process of signing union cards at the moment. And a very common response is, uh, I don't want to commit to anything. Like I'm afraid that people will find out or I don't want to sign anything. That's a very common response we're getting right now.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, I mean, signing a union card can sound like a scary first step, but really all it's doing is indicating your support of forming a union in your workplace. And when it comes time for an election, we would hope that support would translate into you voting. Yes. Granted, when the time comes, voting will be anonymous. But the cards are necessary for us to show the widespread support for unionizing so we can reach the next step of going to the National Labor Relations Board to call for the election. And for people who are less familiar with the unionizing process, we need to have a majority of cards signed across all staff. And then we can go to the board, ask for an election. If we get majority saying yes in the election, that means we're voting yes on having a union. And once we win that election, we officially have a union and can start negotiating with the university. We also remind people that one, they don't need to fill out the card in its entirety if they're not comfortable, just the minimum of their name and their email so we have their contact information. And the only people who will see that they signed are the union organizers, like MJ and myself, and the NLRB, unless they choose to share that they signed with anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

It's relatively private. People outside of this process will not know unless you yourself share that you are supporting this union. I like to think of this, like maybe this is not appropriate. So if that's the case, let me know, Emily. But I like to think of signing a union card as signing a petition almost, except this petition is private. It's a part of the process of making your voice count, but this is not signing a contract. We're many steps removed from signing a contract in this step of signing a union card. This is just like the gathering support phase.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah, and I think it's important to know, I mean, it is an official document, a union card. So I mean, it's something that we don't want to take super lightly, but I think understanding, like you said, where we're at in the process. This isn't signing you up for the union to pay dues. We don't have a contract, but we are trying to figure out where our support lies and where people's concerns are. So I would just keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

This is step one of many steps. This one I haven't heard personally, but I'm sure this has come up because it's just such a common response that people have with unions in general, is I don't want to pay union dues.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah, that or they're asking, you know, like what are the dues? When do I have to pay the dues? And in this situation, we typically have to remind people that signing a union card does not mean that they're officially in a union, like we were saying, and they don't need to pay dues right away. The cards are really just meant as a step to show the majority support for unionizing in our workplace, and we don't have the official union yet. And when the time comes and we're an official union, then we'll vote on how much the dues will be. And there are some, I think, rules as to what percent of your salary that's allowed to be. And I don't think it'll be that much. But long story short is you don't have to pay dues right now.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, and it has the same energy as people who say they don't want to pay taxes. And my response is always like, taxes pay for things, dude. Like, do you think it just disappears into the ether? Like, no, they pay for roads, they pay for libraries, they pay for public transit, they pay for, I don't know, community programs, like they pay for things. I think a more accurate way to think about union dues, eventually when we get there, you can think of union dues as like you pay for health insurance, a part of your paycheck goes away to health insurance, right? A union provides benefits, just like health insurance. Oh, that's very debatable in America. A union provides benefits.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

The ideal is there.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

The ideal is there. And you know what? I would say a union provides more benefit than some health insurance companies. And the union due helps cover that cost. So in your paycheck, a part of that goes to health insurance. I think that's like a more healthy way of thinking about union dues.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

You're paying for a service, and the service is a union.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Even people who don't want to pay taxes because they don't like how that money is being spent. I tell people, and this is kind of jumping into another point, too, where people worry that the union isn't going to represent them and what they want. And I think we're losing the concept of what a union is. It is our union. It is not our parent union. It's not Hopkins lawyers, it's not the administration, it's not the couple of organizers who are leading the way. It's everyone's union. If you have something you want to share, you should bring that to the table. And there will always be an open platform for that. So I just remind people if you want something, we can negotiate that. You just have to tell us and you have to be willing to let your voice be heard and get a bit involved.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah, I really love that point because I think right now some people justifiably are very upset at how their tax dollars are currently being spent by the federal government, this regime, shall we say? You know what? Here's some good news. We don't get a lot of good news in 2026, but here's some good news. How do federal governments spend your tax dollars is many steps removed from you, but how your union operates, you have a direct line to how your union operates. Unlike most things that you pay for, right? You have a direct say in this. And a union is one of the most democratic things that you can do. It is workers banding together, voting on things together. Like you have much more say in how your union operates than how your tax dollars are getting spent. So if you're worried about that, keep that in mind. This is our union.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah, and I think a great example of this too is for the PhD students in their union. They had a person who needed legal help internationally, and they took a vote across everyone who was part of the union to say, should we use our dues to help pay the legal fees for this person? And it was voted on. Most people were in favor of that. So that's how that person received support. But again, it was voted on.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Democracy is nice when it works, huh?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah. What is that?

SPEAKER_00 21:35

It's bleak. It's 2026, it's bleak. Okay. Uh, next concern that we are hearing, unfortunately, because this regime is doing some nonsense. A very common concern that we're hearing is I'm worried about my immigration status. I'm worried about my visa. I'm worried about the fact that I'm an international staff. Very common concern right now.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah, and that's because we do have a lot of international workers at our university. And to help address these concerns, which again are incredibly valid. I totally understand all the tension and the anxiety surrounding this. We ended up creating flyers and holding town halls specifically for international workers to help address their questions and concerns because we recognize that our political climate has made it extremely hard for folks who are not citizens to advocate for themselves and have created a lot of fear around drawing attention to themselves. But it's also important to know that unions have been on the front lines of protecting immigrant workers' rights, including undocumented workers. And we've even seen the support within other unions at our institution. So we typically emphasize five things. The biggest thing is all employees, regardless of visa or immigration status, are covered by the National Labor Relations Act. And this applies to private sector, non-supervisory workers in the US, all of that. The next point is all visa and immigration statuses are included. We have gotten some questions about well, I have this type of visa, I'm on this type of green card, and you should know that you are protected across the board. So there's no carve outs for any visa status. And the last thing that's important is some people have, I guess, this wording within their visa or their documents that they're not allowed to participate in political activity. And we do want to clarify that union activity is not considered political activity.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

As much as some politicians would like you to believe union activity is not political.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

And I think this is also a good time to reiterate the points that retaliation for unionizing is illegal under any circumstances and that cards are confidential.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

And similar to a previous point, I would say, do you feel safe about your immigration status prior to having a union? Were you confident that your employer would protect you without a union? One of the main tenets of unionization is protecting the workers, including protecting immigrant workers from dangers both from within the organization and beyond. And with a union, you don't have to fight this alone. We have examples at our institutions, the one that you just mentioned, where it was the union that stepped up to help this individual with their immigration concerns. And right now, with ice raids in Los Angeles and also in many American cities, starting to be beefed up in Baltimore too.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

So at least it's word on the street. We've had some sightings, we've been talking about it on our own team. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

It's spreading, unfortunately, like a cancer.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

It's a huge stressor.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

It's unions, oftentimes, that are the ones stepping up to protect workers. And, you know, just think about it. Is your employer going to protect you? And for some people, if you're fortunate, the answer is yes, great. That's good. I'm glad your employer is willing to step up and protect you. But I want to hazard a guess that most employers are not going to do that. And that's why union is so important. All right. The next concern, we get this a lot. I'm happy with my current situation. Like, I don't want to rock the boat.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah. And like you're saying, this is pretty common. I can even empathize with this myself. I have a great manager and a great team. I really like the work that we do. But I also understand that that's not the norm for everyone across the university. I've heard some really frustrating stories from other staff related to their supervisors and how they've been held back from promotions or raises. And I should also say, not just their supervisors, but HR as well. I've also heard from others at their incoming salary, which is a point to be made now, not seeing raises equitable with inflation or seeing raises at all that are below the poverty line, essentially. Very sad. I think it's below the livable wage line in Baltimore. It's crazy. I mean, these are highly qualified staff members at an extremely prestigious institution, and they're not able to own a car, move out on their own. It's insane. So that all being said, I typically try to share some of these stories with people so they're aware of the working conditions across the university. I know a lot of people are typically siloed into their research teams, which operates to the university's benefit and is also more reason for us to unionize and have these conversations. And I also tell people that we don't want to make things worse for anyone who is currently happy. Our goal is to improve working conditions across the board, and we want to recognize that the things that are working for staff and are keeping people happy because that's equally important as well.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yeah, I also found this type of response, it has the same energy as I don't care about social safety nets because I have money. I'm good, so I don't want to care about other people that's not me. And I'm also very fortunate. And as someone who's very fortunate to be in a position of loving my current job and having great managers and PIs with almost no complaints, I want to participate in the unionization process because one, I want to help my fellow coworkers to get to where I am of being happy with their jobs because not everyone is this fortunate. And two, I want insurance in case anything does go south. What's that quote? Like you're always closer to being homeless than being a millionaire. Yeah. You can apply that to employment. And this is especially true given the current landscape and research when this regime is cutting science fundings left and right. Like having a union for me, I'm very happy right now. But a union is one extra layer of protection. You don't have to rock the boat, the boat will rock by itself. And when that happens, you're gonna wish you have a life jacket. So that's how I view unions. Like even though I have no complaints, I'm still like very invested.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yeah, I think I just see the union as an overall benefit, not detracting from anything that's working for people.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

All right, here's another common one. I'm leaving soon. What's the point? Whether leaving because I got a new job, or for a lot of staff, maybe they are pursuing graduate school. That's a very common reason why people leave in a university, or I'm about to retire. Like this doesn't apply to me.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah, so I feel like there are two ways to approach this. If people are leaving for another job or leaving for grad school and they're like, it doesn't matter if I sign a card, I'm like, it definitely still matters. It still counts in our numbers. So as long as I tell people it still counts, if they're as long as they're supportive, they will typically go ahead and sign it. And the other side of this coin is this to me is always a plug for the retirement benefits. Those are something that we will be including in our negotiations for sure. And we've seen some frustrations with how that's worked out for some folks. Like I know someone who left the university and then came back, and they, I think, lost a lot of the benefits that they had from before. And I think this also plays well into like, I'm happy with what I have, Car, because really, if anything, we can just work to make it better.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Definitely. A union only serves to improve things for everyone. And I think people are too used to being told, this is what you're worth, be thankful by big corporations that we forget like how important we really are. But also at a fundamental level, I think we as a society are too conditioned by capitalism or patriarchy or what have you to only do things if it benefits us directly right now. You see this everywhere. It's like, oh, why do I need to care about this? I'm about to move, or why do I need to care about this? Like, this doesn't affect me. But think of the rights you have now. Think of the people before you who are fighting for civil rights or for women's rights or for gay rights who knew that they probably aren't going to enjoy the fruits of their labor, but they did it anyway. And that's where you are right now. So if thinking forward is too hard, think backward. There are people back in the days who gave you these rights who did not benefit from them. And we really want to carry that forward instead of just saying, no, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah, that's the biggest thing is think of the people coming after you if you want to leave it better than you found it.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Reminds me of the National Park slogan.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Leave it better than you found. Is that a I've heard of that somewhere?

SPEAKER_01 29:01

I mean, it's definitely a rule.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah, for sure. Um, another one response that we get often is I figured out how to work the system myself. I want to do my own negotiation. A union is just gonna weaken my negotiation powers.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yeah, some people feel that they won't be personally represented by the union or that their loopholes or connections won't matter anymore. I have a few rebuttals to this. It's really our goal as organizers to have a conversation with everyone who signs a union card or anyone we end up talking to while doing outreach. We want to hear from every individual, hear their story, and hear their grievances. And this helps us as organizers when we go to the table to negotiate, since we'll have an actively involved group of people with a pretty solid view of what's happening across the board to individuals. And I also encourage folks to get involved if they want their voice to be even more strongly heard. And I think this comes down to knowing and understanding that, again, this is our union. It represents us. So if there's something that you don't agree with, you can bring that to the table and it will always be up for discussion. We want everyone's voice to be heard and we have a power as a collective and as individuals to do that. And I also, jumping into my next point, remind people that not everyone has those connections or loopholes. I mean, especially people who are new to the university, and that a union gives us the ability to better the system so people won't be forced to look for them or use them. I understand people aren't always comfortable with that answer, but it really comes down to if you want a level playing field for your colleagues, in my opinion, and we're not taking away your ability to talk with your connections and have those discussions with them. But again, it's just raising the tide for everybody, is our goal.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, thanks to capitalism. I think a lot of us are conditioned to think of everything as a competition when in fact it should be like a team game.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

It always comes back to capitalism.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yeah, unfortunately, uh, it's always the bad guy. And I'll reiterate my previous point. A union is one of the most democratic things that you can do in your personal life. HR is under no obligation to work for you. HR, at the end of the day, is looking out for the organization, and any interest that they have in you is a proxy interest because they want to serve the goals of the organization first. However, a union by design has to listen to you. And think about your negotiation power that you have now. A union will give you that and then more. You will have more negotiation power, in my opinion, because now it's not just your leverage, it's everyone else on your team's leverage against the organization. So it's not a competition. Everyone can share, everyone can work together. We don't have to think of life as like I live in my castle, you live in your castle, and we have to constantly be looking out for danger. Like, no, everyone can have a great time if we, you know, choose to work with each other.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

And I think that might just be two people are comfortable with where they're at because they've made these connections. And again, we just you can keep those. We just want to raise the bar for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Last one. This one's a little bit more nuanced. Uh, what about people who maybe they're about to be promoted into a manager role? Like, can you be a manager and be a part of a union? Let's address some of the gray area.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah, so unfortunately, it does come down to this those with higher and firepower of staff. So typically that's going to be your supervisor or your manager, are not technically within our bargaining unit. There may be some gray area with supervisors if they don't have that ability, but the NLRB and the laws around what defines a bargaining unit are pretty clear in that respect. But that all being said, we have had really productive conversations with people who fall into this gray area or just moved into a managerial role, or maybe thought they were staff and were actually managers. And it really just all connects back to these points about how a rising tide lifts all boats. We want to improve working conditions for all staff. And if we raise that baseline, the managers and supervisors baseline will also have to rise as well. So we anticipate better pay and better benefits across the board, even if they're not in unit. We also understand that the university has already put a lot of pressure on managers to advocate for their staff for promotions and raises and just created a lot of paperwork for hiring and managing. It's kind of a mess, and I really feel for them. So when people tell us that they're worried about having more work as managers, I typically try to emphasize that we want to improve the system to take the burden off of them and put it onto the administration. For example, instead of individually advocating and calling for promotions for their staff, we can have much clearer pathways to promotion. And with this overall better system in place, it will hopefully reduce the burden on managers to deal with these issues around promotion and pay.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yeah. Because staff is so foundational in the organization, when we are better, everyone above us will also be better. So it's really a win-win for the managers and supervisors. Also, if your staff's happier, you'll probably have a better time managing them. And while the rules are very clear about what is a manager and not, we said the higher and firepower. I do want to emphasize that at the end of the day, a union is building community and connection. So while some staff may technically not be in the bargaining unit, they are still a part of the vibe of the staff.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

And there is still connection and community building. Win-win for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yeah, I do want to emphasize that people sometimes have concerns around, you know, well, if we're demanding better pay, where is that coming from? The university says that they don't have money. So, like, where is this money coming from?

SPEAKER_00 34:16

First of all, lies.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Yeah, that's the biggest point is we have done our due diligence and looked at the accounts. We've looked at how money is being spent. We looked at the surplus. Long story short, we're gonna link this in the podcast description, but they have the money to pay us. They absolutely have the money to pay us more money, a better wage.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

This is an exercise that you can do. They talk about, like, oh, you know, this is the maximum that we can pay you. Things are tough right now. Ask them how much is the C-suite getting paid? How much is the CEO getting paid? How much is the CFO getting paid? How much is the COO getting paid? And if they're like, ah, well, you know, that means they have money. Like, they absolutely have the money. They just don't want you to have it. And don't get me started on like shareholders.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Yeah, I mean, the president got an 8% raise last year, so I don't For doing what?

SPEAKER_00 35:01

What did he do? We don't even have enough to cover inflation.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah, it's like if you're not gonna give raises to the people who are making the least in the university, I think you really need to reevaluate your priorities.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

As with all episodes of this podcast, I have to justify its connection to public health. Uh, why is this public health? We've done previous episodes about labor rights as a public health concept, and unionization is definitely a part of labor rights in the most direct sense. Oftentimes, it's the unions who force the employers to provide adequate PPE and protections for workers. There was a story that broke out during COVID. Everybody needs a mask. And a lot of employers, especially for what are they called? Like the people who raise chickens. Farmers? I guess just farmers, but there's a lot of people who work with animals and they're like, hey, we don't have PPE. And their employers did not provide them adequate PPE. And it's their union that step up and say, no, as part of our bargaining, like we demand that we are protected when we do work. This is particularly true for people who work in industries where they're exposed to a lot of hazards. Oftentimes, it's the unions that advocate for worker protections. Unions are often on the front lines of these labor protections. And we mentioned ICE raids already. This is true in Los Angeles, and I believe this is true in other cities as well, where it was the unions that stepped up to rally people and provide like frontline resistance to the incoming threat that is fascism. So there we go. I've justified it. Yeah. That's why this episode can exist.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Love it. Well summed up.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

And as a final thought, the federal level mess, and it is a dumpster fire for mess right now, it can feel very far away. I understand that sometimes you can feel helpless of like, I'm just one person. How do I change things in DC? But I will remind everyone that actions at the local level is a fantastic way to get involved. So we mentioned in the past, like voting in your state elections, your local elections, voting in elections that you don't even realize is going on, like that is a great way for you to make a difference. And at one level below that, you can make a difference in your personal life by being a part of the unionization process. You can make a difference. It does matter. And these tiny actions do count. And if you want to participate in that movement, forming a union is one of those ways. Fascists hates unions. For one, it's inherently democratic, which goes against everything fascism is about. I would argue that unionizing your workplace is a form of resistance to fascism. And it is a type of resistance that you can do.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

I might just add on to that briefly and say everything feels heavy. Everything feels like a lot. I think we all go through days where we're feeling incredibly depressed about what's going on in our own country in the world. Yeah. And this is something that I will say, it takes a lot of work, but it gives me hope to be surrounded by people who really care about each other, care about making things fair, care about protecting the people in our community from a lot of these issues. So yeah, if you're thinking about starting a union, if you're on the fence about joining a union, know that this is something that can bring hope and action into a situation that feels very helpless most days.com.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

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